she's just not somebody you can be

friends with she'll ask you about your

family she'll be very nice but you never

actually get to know this person you

can't get through the glass she very

much seems to think that everybody's too

dumb to figure out what she's doing


Vanessa gregoriadis you were on this

podcast before you're back how you doing

nice to see you yes I'm doing very well

so you wrote this article for Vanity

Fair and it's really funny because I

feel and it's just my opinion that

there's been a rewriting of History so

that's what your article sort of stands

out as this important historic artifact

I think because I'll just say because

we're expected to remember that Megan

was hated from the start but uh it's

often because she's a woman or because

she is biracial or whatever else but

you're you were ahead of the curve I

think and in that article uh you as

you're stating at the time that she

she's just become the darling of the

British process of 2018 and a royal

Cinderella story so we forget I don't we

that at the beginning she was very

popular yeah I mean look far be it for

me to defend the British tabloids right

like we all we all know that a lot of

great stuff happens and and I'm not

gonna sit here and say that you know

it's all on the up and up the fact is is

that when Megan first you know hooked up

with hair there wasn't this like

outpouring of vitriolic anger and racism

from the Press towards her there was

more a curiosity like who is this she's

from Suits wow how crazy maybe he'll go

with her you know it behooved the

tabloids to also play this up as a

romance right so I do think that she can

point to a few different things that

were said that were really unkind and

one or two things that were indeed

racist but in general there was a sea of

very you know sort of basic problem

um that you would see of any girlfriend

of his and the Press had sort of left

that thing of like oh he wore the Nazi

costume and oh you know he drinks all

the time that was sort of over yeah and

so he I mean they speak of this

difficulty from the start and I think

you're spot on I mean I don't know it's

a really difficult conversation to have

about sort of race and and misogyny and

all these different kinds of things

because you're always part of me wants

to say you're always going to get that

in a population of like you know

hundreds of Millions people in a country

or in this country 70 or 80 million

people they're always going to be bad

people there are going to be bad actors

and as you say the Tabloid press here

were just awful but then also I don't

want to be flippant and just like well

so it doesn't matter I guess there was I

mean there was some sort of race element

stuff from the start was was there I

think there was a bit of racism at you

know the the Forefront of it but indeed

you know the fact that she has a black

mother was not a large part of her story

in the British press like they were much

more interested in suits and who does

she hang out with and what exactly is

going on at Soho house with you know

this one and that one because she that's

sort of the Toronto scene the sort of

expat British scene is how she had like

risen to the level of even meeting

somebody like this right so that was

where people you know where where the

Press was looking do you remember that

or did you ever come across that Danny

Baker Story the journalist who lost his

job uh

he he was he's quite well known in

England and he put up a picture of the

Royal Family holding a monkey and

um okay yeah but yeah but well no but

wait but wait because oh that sounds bad

are you gonna tell me it wasn't that bad

yeah I think it wasn't that bad because

I think he's put up stuff before of the

royal family being monkeys he just finds

that funny and it was back at a time I

think this was a huge change like he in

England anyway it marked this change

where a lot of people were embarrassed

to find they didn't realize that Megan

was biracial and I'm I definitely speak

for myself because I had no idea I don't

follow the Royals in general and I saw

this woman I grew up in a you know a

Jewish upbringing a lot of Jewish people

some are sort of Russian and very white

like me but a lot of sort of Darker

skinned and stuff she could have just

been one one of us

um I had no idea and he said he had no

idea and it was weird for him to

suddenly put out like a racist thing

after like 50 years of not putting out

racist things but he lost his job so

that was like a turning point for

everyone he was like oh no okay we've

got to be careful now if we do criticize

not that we were criticizing that much

back then like and you're writing your

article as well

um her public this was I I love that

it's like this time machine because this

was 2018. and so you write her public

performance has been flawed dollars so

what's changed in the last few years

yeah I mean just to just to put a bow on

that I would just say that like you know

the the royal family is are there the

original racists and they used to like

shatter their faces to make them whiter

so you know of course there is some

racism there but uh yes when I wrote

this article I you know would say that

you know a couple things happened the

first one was that

um like you know a woman's magazine that

normally would write about all of the

stuff that I write about

um sort of refuse to even promote the

article and when I talked to the editor

and I said why aren't you picking this

up there's a ton of news in here she

said well we're not going to say

anything negative about Megan and your

article really strikes us as something

that like you're totally aw you're

totally wrong about this you're

completely off the on off the

reservation and I and I was like okay

mark my words like I don't have it in

for Megan for no reason like I just

happen to have on and talked to 20

people who knew her and this is like

what I came away with which is basically

like you know she's a grasping striving

like woman and one of the

um things that somebody said to me that

always stuck in my mind was that uh you

know they said like the the whole cast

of Suits like or not the whole cast of

Suits but a large number of the people

on suits you know sort of didn't like

jive with her and somebody said like

she's just not somebody you can be

friends with you know like she'll you

can go on a hike with her through the

Hollywood Hills and she'll ask you about

your family she'll be very nice but you

never actually get to know this person

like you can't touch her you can't get

through the glass you know and the other

thing that somebody said to me about

that scene of people up in um Toronto at

Soho house which is of course you know

suits was was filmed in Toronto and you

know hanging out with all these Brits up

there that also stuck in my mind was

like these women have everything and

they want everything

and it's basically this idea that you

know I am I am just for women's rights

and for the underclass

is like a later sort of you know gloss

on what was really a life that was

ambitious and directed towards ambition

and and you know

look I think I think it's all just

really silly the way that she's you know

tried she's essentially devoted herself

to rehabbing or changing her image which

really wasn't that bad to begin with

it's like she wants to be sainted she

needs to be Oprah it's like everybody

already loved you just like leave it

it's fine the way it is

um but I I I I think that you know


just the whole world is now sort of

seeing the strangeness of this like

singular Vision that she has for her

life and for Harry

um I just happen to have seen it earlier

because I had actually done like hard

reporting you know I worked in La for a

long time

um I just it was weird it was like I

just everybody I asked I said do you

know Meghan Markle everybody knew her

like she was out and about remember she

had that husband originally you know and

and they were

you know they were out making moves on

the scene like going to dinner with

everybody networking constantly she was

an extremely known quantity in that La

Hollywood sort of you know

like it's not like I know a ton of I

mean I don't know Brad Pitt right like I

don't know a ton of people who are high

level Hollywood people but in the sort

of like

you know TV actors show Runners people

who you know you know care about the hot

restaurant but not the one that costs

500 to go to dinner just the one that

has really good ethnic food and you know

she was she was very very known and that

was a scene that I was you know somewhat

uh able to

wasn't like infiltrating it was like I

was like sort of knew these people you


um it's it's it's interesting like I

think a lot of people wonder why uh they

say why are you obsessed with Meghan

Markle and part of the reason is because

you put out a video on YouTube it gets

hundreds of thousands of views because

everybody's a bit obsessed and I I

wonder what you think of this Theory I I

feel like she's she's now become sort of

the face of a of a maybe a conflict

between like two tribes of people and

you've got sort of uh I think it's okay

to be really ambitious I think we

actually venerate ambitious people

particularly in the states more than the

UK sometimes you know you can be

ambitious and go for that American dream

and which I like I like that you can be

honest and go for it and you can also be

like a really worthy person who does

lots of Charity and wants to help others

and all of those things and I think when

you try and combine the two as we've

seen over the years with a lot of

Hollywood for example a lot of the

Oscars a lot of these people uh it

becomes a little bit Insidious and it

becomes you know disingenuous we don't

really believe the person anymore and it

sort of over the years with Megan it

started to seep out a few of us despite

everyone loving her apparently a few of

us were like well hang on it doesn't

really fit that she's this person who

sort of she went to apparently you know

had to get scholarships to go to school

and grew up completely work in class and

she just wants to help everyone and be

this big feminist and stuff it's just so

much so much of her story doesn't fit

together does it yeah I mean I think the

thing is


you know the way I see Megan is that she


you know she came from this very sort of

middle class uh Hollywood family right

where uh her dad was a lighting designer

you know her mom was like super into


um that you know we'll get to her sister

eventually right her hop sister

um but she

you know sort of grew up on the on the

edges of Hollywood I guess you would say

we're not not really the edges but you

know these were not the Rich and Famous

her parents these were just the regular

working stiffs in Hollywood and you know

I always thought it was incredible that

she she went to like uh you know a nice

Catholic school and then after school

she would sometimes go to the set of

Married With Children to hang out with

her dad you know so that's where he was

like doing lighting which was just like

quite a juxtaposition and a in a really

strange way

um but she you know seems to from a

young age have had real Ambitions to be

famous to be an actress to be like sort

of of the higher class than what her

upbringing was so that's like where she

was pointed to I mean her family is

fascinating and her relationship with

her father I think is fascinating

because what people said to me is like

they did have a good loving relationship

but there's something about him that's

also odd there's something about him

that is hard to reach and behind glass

as well and so

what's happened with her dad is just a

really sad story in a way I think which

is that maybe she you know I would

imagine was a little embarrassed of him

or didn't really know how am I gonna

play you know my mom who just like went

to Humboldt and hung out for a few years

I mean her when you start looking into

her family history it doesn't seem like

one of a princess right


there may have been some anxiety around

that maybe there were even questions

around money around that what are what

is my family gonna do when they realize

like I have the crown jewels you know

how is that gonna work

um how can I introduce these people to

you know royalty and all the other Lords

and Ladies that I now hang out with you

know putting myself in her mind which is

whatever obviously my imagination I can

imagine that she was nervous about a lot

of this stuff and then you know

the story that I've been told from my

reporting is that you know there was a

female journalist from I one of the

tabloids who basically sort of moved

down to Mexico to be near her dad and

you know really befriended him and

essentially uh you know played the game

that journalists play which is like let

me help you but also let me get a side

you know let me get a story in the

newspaper let me help you collect your

thoughts about all this and we'll get

stories in the newspaper and

um you know there was some emotional

bond that was formed between that female

reporter and her dad

um and that that that got in the way of

some of the relationship between him and

Megan I think some of what you're what

you what you're saying how you describe

them you know on the well I suppose the

edges or the cusps of Hollywood all the

time and working in Hollywood it sounds

like there's that real aspiration uh and

so so Megan might have been right to be

a bit wary of of her family and she was

proven right to be fair to her I

criticized her a lot I can see why she

was guarded about I mean how how does

she introduce a family like that who who

are that aspirational and as you point

out in your article uh just see it as

celebrities and climbing a ladder how do

you introduce them to you know your this

new family this new life you've carved

out for yourself well see I don't know

if they were so striving I think the way

that I've been told that is that she was

the striving one and they were just sort

of Hollywood weirdos like they were just

sort of like all right you know what I

mean like not really you know her mom is

supposed to be very calm and like a nice

presence and her dad was like already

sort of like down in Mexico right like

doing whatever living on a probably a

pensioner salary and like you know there

it was more just that they were like not

they didn't fit a normal mold and

probably you never knew what really was

going to come out of their mouths

but I do think that you know had she

you know figured out a way to bring them

to Britain to meet everybody in a

controlled setting for a dinner or

something like that and by everybody I

mean her parents I do not actually mean

her sister you know uh

it would have if she didn't have to

bring all the people on the outskirts of

the family and you know this cousin and

that cousin just her parents

and set it up that way early on

um you know for a weekend a shooting

weekend or whatever uh all of this could

have sort of been avoided you know and

they would have put out the word to the

rest of the family like

Megan is talking to us but it's not

going to be the extended family at the


um or something along those lines now

all those people would eventually have

told their stories there's no way that

they wouldn't have but the stuff with

the parents is really so strange and her

dad is so strange that I think she could

have avoided some of it and what I can

see from his point of view as well I

mean imagine it's paying to send your

daughter to a you know through college

and then she comes out and starts saying

that you know it was all paid for by

scholarships and things and if I'm just

sort of again it's that that sort of it

seems like she's trying as hard as she

can to be this uh sort of well

Cinderella story and it doesn't seem to

be true

all right well I think the thing is is

that her you know we'd have to actually

see the receipts to know exactly what

happened I mean my recollection which

could just I think it might be that

there is a uh you know there were some

loans and there were some payments and

there was this and that

um the

the fact is is that she wanted to be

seen as like this independent woman you

know and what we know now about her is

that she has like sort of a strange

relationship to objective reality like

she has this like sort of warped reality

and then she just like Marshals evidence

underneath it to support a thesis that

may not be the case and she very much

seems to think that everybody's too dumb

to figure out what she's doing and I

think that that's where her fatal flaw

lies which is like everybody knows that

you got in trouble for saying you never

Googled like Prince Harry right on the

Oprah interview and then you come out

with your Netflix documentary and the

first thing you do is try to create some

supporting evidence in the first like

five minutes of that documentary to show

that you were right about that and

somehow how we're all supposed to not

know that this is part of like a PR

crisis comms strategy


which is quite like

strange you know like even Diana talked

to the Press like everybody knows that

Diana was heavily involved in Her Image


um she didn't do a great job with that

but like you know there's

and she thinks she has this Ace in the

Hole which is Harry will just say over

and over well my mother

right like he'll just say well my mother

was killed by these people you know so

thereby they are unmentionables

Untouchables they are evil and

um any manipulation that we have to do

is completely Justified because we are

fighting this enormous you know braying

like monster

um which is only like a monster in her

like it's it is a monster in his mind

right because it's real for him like the

psychology I mean it must be so like so

hard for him

but it's not a monster in her mind

because she is the one who would go out

to like drinks with Piers Morgan like

yeah she was desperate for the press to

be like interested in her you know yeah

no absolutely and I mean there was this

bit that I remember from uh Prince

Harry's book spare where he I hate it it

was one of the worst Parts really

because I I'm not a big fan of Prince

Harry either or any of the the Royals I

mean I think the whole royal thing is

that's a whole other topic about whether

the world should be there or not yeah

and I don't mind that they that they are

there I just think if you grow up in

those under those conditions it's

difficult to then be sort of a a

well-rounded individual but um there's a

scene where he really uh talks with

disdain about the Spice Girls because he

happened to be sort of sharing a

platform of them at one point when he

was younger and he talks about how they

were sort of enjoying the Limelight and

the press and the attention and stuff

and I thought it was so tone deaf

because these are you know five working

class women who have worked their way up

and they rely on the Press it's a

symbiotic relationship that they have

and they're selling what they have which

is their voices and their dancing and

all these things that they can do and

their their whole ethos and he didn't

have to do that however after all the

criticism that he's dished out at people

like the Spice Girls or just the press

in general he's as South Park pointed

out he's become a journalist himself and

dished out more secrets about the royal

family than any of any other journalists

could have dreamed of doing and he did

it for the same reason they did it for

money but I think it's even worse

because he didn't need anywhere near us

these people I'm not a huge fan of the

paparazzi but often they need the money

to sort of you know put bread on the

table uh with Harry he didn't need you

know hundreds it's absolutely like

bananas I mean what has happened is so

bananas and I wish I had seen this

coming because quite honestly when I you

know I'm not that well sourced in

Britain I didn't know you yet but like

you know when I after I did this this


um you know I had heard Tina Brown was

working on a book but I was like my Lord

this is a book because I know that this

is gonna go someplace real strange you

know and um I mean I still get emails

from lots of British you know

biographers and tabloid writers and

they're always like

I saw this story who is this person this

unnamed person in your story and I'm

like I'm not giving you my sources but

um there is like

just a fascinating story of like

anglo-american relations upper class

lower class Upstairs Downstairs like you

know what what the I mean it's just it

has everything racism gender you know

the need for money when these people

have so I mean they could go back to

England and live in you know the biggest

mansions that anybody ever saw I mean I

guess they got Frogmore Cottage sort of

taken away but like you know they could

have everything they want right if they

were there they obviously don't want

that and you know to that I I give them

credit if you really don't want it good

for you for just saying like I'm out of

here you know making myself I'm gonna

make my own life with my own kids my own

wife like I think that's really cool but

um the hypocrisy of like

I hate the Press so much

but I should be able to sell my products

where I speak to you directly and put

out my warped vision of reality and you

should just buy it even though we have


many reports of Megan

assistance being fired this person she's

a problem with this person she's a

problem with that person there's like

endless things that happened while they

were in Britain that are confirmed that

are not about like

you know victimhood right and

so I don't get like

how I the only explanation I can have I

can get is that I mean in my the only

explanation that like makes sense to me

is the idea that they truly are part of

an overclass now like they are at dinner

with Oprah and Bezos and you know I

don't know about Elon Musk but like the

people in the world who

you know for for for whom like reality

doesn't really matter and nobody would

ever say anything negative towards you

and they're sort of playing to that

audience right yeah I just feel they

could have got there without the virtue

stuff people like excesses when people

are honest about it people like the

Kardashians don't they you know that

just the Mad excess uh ambition Drive

fantastic good for you it's you know why

is that they didn't do that and then

there's a lot of stuff as well I always

think this about I mean there's a

difficulty just with celebrity anyway uh

in terms of

um for example children's books um I

know that like in the industry of

children's writing people are really

annoyed at Celebrities because

celebrities keep coming and writing

children's books uh and it's like

stealing the work from the children's

book writers because if you've got a big

name and you're a celebrity your book's

the one that's going to sell a lot more

yeah um but that's true across so many

genres when you're a celebrity you can

and I think that's okay because you

you've got to live how you've got to

live but there's just zero awareness of

them doing that and I'm annoyed as a

podcaster because Megan made a podcast

and they had this big deal it took them

like a year to put one episode out

they're just awful they were they're so

bad and she got paid more from that than

I'll get from like years of putting out

three episodes a week now all fine but I

just don't want to hear that she's a

victim and that he's a victim and that

they're all victims right but they but

it also could be like a a really just

um you know incredible strategy that

they have because the fact is if they're

not gonna tell us secrets about the

royal family you know which of course

they're gonna have to say they're the

worst right they're never gonna say like

okay let me get into the Nuance here


that's what's keeping attention on them

like if they did just go make their you

know documentary about Africa or

whatever you and I wouldn't be sitting

here talking about them so this is what

like I I think that

she's extremely canny and you know in

her heart of hearts does she know

does she know exactly what she's doing I

don't know I mean

after I wrote the story of infinity Fair


five friends of hers were suddenly

authorized to speak to People magazine

and uh

cover in People magazine came out about

how amazing she is and you know it

wasn't like oh Vanity Fair was wrong but

it was a very very clear rebuttal piece

right and

this is just my opinion but there's

nobody who can authorize those people to

speak except for her yeah but I guess

there's a difference between and this is

what we do we're speculating about

there's a difference between her

um knowing that she's actually you know

a nefarious present presence trying to

do bad things uh and her going on the

defensive and just being like well hang

on they've said that I've you know I'm

bad but I know these friends will speak

nicely about me and I'd actually prefer

it if she were the just you know uh

malevolent one if she knew like hahaha

I'm an evil narcissist and I'm doing

this for my own gains I'm like you know

what fine good on you that like you say

it's a strategy but if she doesn't

realize that's what's frustrating right

right right yeah she's she's a

I I think you would have to

be with her to know but I do know that I

know somebody who interviewed her

um who sell remaining nameless because I

tried to get her to come on my podcast

Infamous it's like you should come on my

podcast and talk about Meghan Markle and

she said I don't want to come because

I've had a million tabloids calling me

you know people coming after me on the

internet who are like stands of Megan

like I just don't want to deal with this

but she had spent a day with Megan in

California and her takeaway was

this person just is not on the level

like this person is just not on a level

like I I don't want to be here

you know what is what is it though what

is it they don't like about her

it's that she's not real it's like for

all of her like you know whatever videos

of her like dancing on the beach with

her shoes off and like you know scarves

going around her like she's just not

real she just doesn't know how to relate

to human beings are we talking you've

spent a lot of time with sort of

narcissists and Psychopaths obviously

for Infamous as well we've talked about

Nexium before is is that the sort of

world we're talking about the world of


I don't think she's a psychopath I mean

I have no I don't think like DV

D even some way like that

I think

you know and again this is just my

opinion and my hunch for talking to

people in her family

um you know and I did talk to her sister

a lot and

my hunch is that

there's just something a little off

about all of them yeah you know what's

the deal with her sister then what's the

deal with Samantha Markle because she's

suing her isn't she

she's suing her now

um I can't imagine she's gonna win any

sort of suit

um saying that you know she did know her

half-sister Megan and Megan is you know

lying when she says she didn't know her

um I mean I fell from the conversations

I had with Samantha that she didn't know

her very well she certainly knew her you

know but she you know was leaving the

house right there's a quite a big age



and this felt to me like a relationship

that had broken apart a long time ago

probably when Megan had started having

success right


the funny thing about Samantha is is

like she's quite articulate and funny

and interesting to talk to

um and she probably has some good

insights and real information

but she can't help herself from calling

her like princess pushy and striking out

and you know you feel social feelings

right I mean

I don't think that you can

overestimate the amount of hurt that was

felt throughout that entire family like

any third cousin was like I should have

been at this wedding

like why is every third cousin of

Harry's there why am I not there you

know and and you can make an argument

for that which is like


I mean

you know I I also heard that there were

a lot of people at the wedding

who were sort of looking at each other

like the Americans who were invited and

going can you believe we were invited to

this wedding like we're not really

friends with these people you know like

that she had to create this whole like

cast right to to show that she had

people there for her when she could have

just had her actual family right and and

I just think that's where it it's like a

little bit of honey and a carrot would

have gone really far she didn't have to

invite every third cousin but

I bet you could have controlled the

situation a little bit better

given how how he's broken away from his

own family it is all a bit gross

um a bit you know

because he's from the sort of Posh Rich

family it's like okay well they'll host

it because they're the royal family but

we're all people we're gonna you know

ashes to ashes or whatever so we'll just

people wandering around why should it be

his family it was pretty exciting that

it was his family I mean it wasn't gonna

be like you know some place in like

Inland Empire like uh like if they want

to break away

right yeah we didn't yet they didn't yet

um you know I think uh yeah I think none

of that had really had really happened

at that point and

um I don't think they should be faulted

and again like I think a lot of stuff

happened where her dad and her sister

were way at fault like I don't want to

give the impression that things did not

go like massively massively Haywire

because they did

um but I I do feel like it's curious

that somebody who is so intense about

managing her own image wasn't able to

manage this family complexity you know

without it breaking out into full view

in a like

just shocking right like an absolutely

shocking dumpster fire you know yeah I

like the quote um uh charity starts in

the home because I I just I just had too

many experiences I think like living

with people when I was younger and uh

who have always just been on about like

saving the rainforest or whatever it

might be and then they don't do the

dishes in the house or something they

don't do their their part and I think

it's you know to be like running around

the world on these extravagant holidays

talking about all the charity that she's

doing and the things she's doing for

feminism and stuff but not making an

effort to like invite her own family to

the wedding not making an effort to go

along with some of the I mean as stupid

as they are they're the you know the

Royals some of the Traditions are a bit

outdated and stuff

um but we've all got in-laws and you

know we just sort of shut up around them

and do some of what they want to do and

that's right I mean the problem here is

that you know it's like she invites the

cousin and they you know steal the first

communion you know of you know I mean

like they're just like who knows what is

gonna happen you know and certainly

they're gonna sell a bunch of stories I

mean not much is clear right so

yeah I mean I get that it was not she

was unknowledgeable that something weird

was gonna happen if she didn't control

it but she didn't do a good job in the

way that she tried to manage the

situation I just you you know I I just

don't the thing that I am still so

surprised about is just like

just be real honey like just be real

that's what people actually like like

you can still do all this weird glossy

like netflixy stuff but like if you're

making a podcast people actually want to

hear from like a human being not like an

Android like she sounds like a robot you

know yeah and how much longer can we

watch this show I mean they're really

starting to repeat themselves now

yeah so when I was five years old I

wrote to a commercial to you know tell

them what a feminist I was and I helped

everyone and me and Serena Williams are

victims Serena Williams actually done

something in her life she's pretty cool

you know yeah that that episode really I

couldn't listen to the podcast after

that yeah some of the you give us some

great insights in that article

um and again you were ahead of the curve

because nobody was printing uh criticism

of of her or him at that time but really

interesting insights into her her life

and you can see why she might have had

some issues with authenticity because I

do think when you grow up around that

Hollywood side you know you're always

sort of looking in and then you get this

idea of like performed authenticity

you're trying too hard I see it you know

my my half sister she's grown up uh with

the family they're always watching like

X Factor and the voice and all these

things on TV and I think it's hard it

must be hard for her sometimes to look

at that and then sort of think am I

supposed to be like that because that's

what you go out watching and Megan was

really you know watching this acting

stuff and then there's some stuff you

wrote about like you know if she had a

tantrum when she was a baby and threw

Peas on the floor her dad would sort of

join in uh and throw Peas on the floor

so she was always around this sort of

performative like what there was there

was a blurred line between what was real

and what was performed

yeah I think she you know I mean look

she was a young actress in Hollywood

right so she was like sort of in that

scene where nobody's actually telling

the truth everybody's sort of just you

know trying to make it however they can

so for me you know

I really wonder like what is actually

going through her mind I really am here

I am very curious did you watch the

South the South Park episode no oh they

they imply there's a bit at the end

where uh the the character that's

supposed to be Harry sort of opens her

head up and sort of says something like

is anyone in there and it like Echoes

um so they they yeah she's quite smart

though I mean if you look at her writing

also she's a very good writer

um even when it's like you know the the

letter she sent to her dad that she you

know knew was going to be released or

whatever it's actually a very good a

good letter I mean yeah like I I mean I

had a I got a an incredible anecdote

where she had gone to like glamor or L

one of these women's magazines and she

met this woman that I know who I

actually made a podcast with Justine

Harmon who uh the two of us made a

podcast about the fall of Victoria's

Secret called Fallen Angel and so she

she went you know it's sort of like a

meet and greet which is what like B

level actresses would do with women's

magazine editors and she came into the

office she met with Justine Justine's

you know in the course of conversation

mentioned she was about to get married


she said to Justine well I do

calligraphy like can I do the

calligraphy for your wedding Megan was

like sometimes I do calligraphy on the

side like I do it for people's weddings

sometimes I'm really it's like a thing I

know how to do and I'm really good at it

and I want to do it for you and so

Justine like afterwards was like asking

her friend like can I actually ask like

Meghan Markle to do the calligraphy for

my wedding and


and she didn't ask her and then she

ended up like interviewing her again or

something and the first thing we're not

the first thing but like Meghan Markle

says to her

why do you why did you never call me to

do the calligraphy for your wedding and

she was just like what

thing like

um I'm gonna have to look that up just

to make sure I didn't like completely

misspeak but basically that's the kind

of like

I feel like that's sort of where she's

at where she's like one of these people

where she

like gives really elaborate awesome


like where you're like oh no do I have

to like give you back a present because

I don't even know what to get and I I

wouldn't even want to get this present

it's very nice of you but this is not

like my love language already

never never trust people who give

outlandish presents because I actually

think that because I think that is I

mean we you and I know from doing

looking into Colts and stuff there's

love bombing it's a huge sort of

manipulative thing that people do it

happens in relationships when like you

can imagine a guy or a girl giving like

loads of presents and then you sort of

expect things back and from my own

experience and I I sort of well I know

my fiance is listening to this I've sort

of uh concerned that I'll stop getting

presents now but when you get them

presents that are too much that it

offers it never feels good right your

first thought is like oh how am I gonna

I feel I feel humiliated and how am I

going to get them back how can I how can

I live nicely enough I didn't want to

see that friend again anyway really now

I've got to like be friends with him for

a few more years


maybe that's a nice thing that she

offered to do the calligraphy it is

quite nice I mean it is quite nice

that's the thing you know she's lovely

in person everybody really likes her you

know but you don't hear about her the

things you hear about Kim Kardashian

right which is like everybody says oh my

God I met Kim Kardashian and she's great

right like she's so sweet she's so

polite she's not like crass like she's

seems sort of smart and she's interested

in you and there's feels like a realness

there you know and that's not what you

hear about her

you know another another line in your

article that that had me annoyed a bit

at Megan

um was this this thing about how she was

like the president of every Club at

school and she was this huge over

achiever but now she speaks about it and

sort of reframes it as not because I

wanted to it was the overachiever mask I

wore you know as a as a way of battling

feeling displaced and again it's that

sort of line and again we cover this a

lot in Cults and things but it's that

line between sort of victim and and uh

and well what's the opposite of victim

but I don't want to say Predator hero

Yeah well yeah victim and hero I guess

it's that it's that line it's like I can

imagine somebody at school now going

around being like in charge of

everything almost bullying other people

like just being the popular kids and

stuff like that and you get to have that

and it's like you get your cake and eat

it because then 20 years later you can

reframe it as like but it's this victim

story because I was so displaced by my

and it's like we know that we know that

about you know even in Back to the

Future like Biff The Bullying it you

know he must have had a bad upbringing

and it's that old traditional cliche of

like ah their parents were the real

bullies and that's why they were like

that at school it doesn't excuse you

being like this you know you can't just

I don't know I've lost my train of

thought here but you know what I mean

yeah I mean I think the thing is is like

there's a lot of pop psychology that she

does and it's look I think she you know

I think I think she felt somewhat uh you

know at at Loose Ends growing up you

know whatever her personality of her

father is her mother wasn't around that

much you know having a black mother

probably at that time was a little weird

right like having an interracial family

um wasn't like she didn't feel like she

looked like everybody else when she went

around she didn't have a perfect

childhood like I think that that much is

very clear and very true like she was

sort of at loose ends and and although

her father did definitely care for her

like and took care of her like there was

you know this was a man who was working

full time right and doing what he could

had some other kids it's like you know

it just it wasn't like a picket fence

lifestyle where she came home from

school and her mom made her peanut

butter and jelly you know I'm sure there

were a lot of TV dinners like in her

life as a kid but you know

a lot of people have like hard

childhoods it's just I don't know I mean

there's like a gratitude piece that's

missing with her like a a gratitude Gene

that I think I don't discern that much

at least in what she puts out like

publicly you know

um yeah

and now they need money like that's the

thing I'm not clear on what the finances

are are you like I don't know

what what they have what they don't have

they have some money anyway I mean I

guess both of them I mean from her

acting and stuff and he got some money

he's just like inherited inherited so I

don't know the full ins and outs of it

but I know he's got a few million or

something but for someone of that kind

of Lifestyle yeah it wasn't it wasn't

enough so but now I think Netflix was a

hundred million dollars and the podcast

was you know tens of millions the book

uh as well so now they've definitely got

you know one or two hundred million

dollars between them which should last

them a few weeks probably with their

their lifestyle and that and that's

again that's the issue it's it's fine to

go and sell stories and things to an

extent for money but we just don't want

to hear the victim story with it I don't

want to hear that the Press are evil

when they're just doing the same thing

when the money is we're not talking

about Millions then we're talking about

you know what do they get a few hundred

maybe a thousand dollars for us one of

these stories so

that's the that's the complication

around it and I think Prince Harry's the

same thing with the Gratitude uh reading

his book it wasn't all bad and it's the

same thing as what you say about Megan

that his life it wasn't that great

um I don't think it was that great I

certainly don't envy his his early uh

life and his upbringing with what

happened to his mum okay he it might be

overused or whatever but it's not not a

nice thing to happen to him uh the lack

of love and the coldness in that family

and also like I think a huge part of

life is growing up and being able to

sort of try and move upwards in some

sense and have a vague feeling of

improving and achieving but if you're

born not just the you know on top of the

top there's nowhere to go it's still

better than being poor and struggling to

put food on the table but I'd say that

most middle or lower middle class people

probably have it better in many respects

in terms of just happiness in your life

but you read that book and there's just

not there's not one iota of like to be

fair I had it a bit you know easier in

some ways then there's nothing he's just

envies like the common person with no

idea about the struggles that most of us

have to make I got um you've mentioned

peanut butter and jelly I got punched

for a peanut butter and jelly sandwich

once what does that mean

somebody oh somebody wanted yours

because you had a nice upbringing with

peanut butter and jelly sandwiches

it was I think actually you've you've

got the Crux of it because what I'm

studying at um Leeds University there

there is a bit of conflict between sort

of the locals and a lot of the students

who often come from London are sort of

uh maybe more middle class uh and so I

was just walking and I'd made this nice

peanut butter and jelly sandwich which

we call peanut butter and jam of course

and uh I haven't had that for years

actually because I'm eating a bit

healthier but but I was just walking and

this guy was like oh you got a sign in

it and I was like oh God uh yes hello

um you yes it's mine though and he said

like oh good gives you suck give us your

Sani and I went oh uh and eventually I

gave him half

and he he threw it on the floor and he

said I don't want your Sani and then he

punched me in the face oh my God

that was 18 year old me

now yeah

crypto is the peanut butter and jelly of

the of the future exactly

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