she's just not somebody you can be
friends with she'll ask you about your
family she'll be very nice but you never
actually get to know this person you
can't get through the glass she very
much seems to think that everybody's too
dumb to figure out what she's doing
[Music]
Vanessa gregoriadis you were on this
podcast before you're back how you doing
nice to see you yes I'm doing very well
so you wrote this article for Vanity
Fair and it's really funny because I
feel and it's just my opinion that
there's been a rewriting of History so
that's what your article sort of stands
out as this important historic artifact
I think because I'll just say because
we're expected to remember that Megan
was hated from the start but uh it's
often because she's a woman or because
she is biracial or whatever else but
you're you were ahead of the curve I
think and in that article uh you as
you're stating at the time that she
she's just become the darling of the
British process of 2018 and a royal
Cinderella story so we forget I don't we
that at the beginning she was very
popular yeah I mean look far be it for
me to defend the British tabloids right
like we all we all know that a lot of
great stuff happens and and I'm not
gonna sit here and say that you know
it's all on the up and up the fact is is
that when Megan first you know hooked up
with hair there wasn't this like
outpouring of vitriolic anger and racism
from the Press towards her there was
more a curiosity like who is this she's
from Suits wow how crazy maybe he'll go
with her you know it behooved the
tabloids to also play this up as a
romance right so I do think that she can
point to a few different things that
were said that were really unkind and
one or two things that were indeed
racist but in general there was a sea of
very you know sort of basic problem
um that you would see of any girlfriend
of his and the Press had sort of left
that thing of like oh he wore the Nazi
costume and oh you know he drinks all
the time that was sort of over yeah and
so he I mean they speak of this
difficulty from the start and I think
you're spot on I mean I don't know it's
a really difficult conversation to have
about sort of race and and misogyny and
all these different kinds of things
because you're always part of me wants
to say you're always going to get that
in a population of like you know
hundreds of Millions people in a country
or in this country 70 or 80 million
people they're always going to be bad
people there are going to be bad actors
and as you say the Tabloid press here
were just awful but then also I don't
want to be flippant and just like well
so it doesn't matter I guess there was I
mean there was some sort of race element
stuff from the start was was there I
think there was a bit of racism at you
know the the Forefront of it but indeed
you know the fact that she has a black
mother was not a large part of her story
in the British press like they were much
more interested in suits and who does
she hang out with and what exactly is
going on at Soho house with you know
this one and that one because she that's
sort of the Toronto scene the sort of
expat British scene is how she had like
risen to the level of even meeting
somebody like this right so that was
where people you know where where the
Press was looking do you remember that
or did you ever come across that Danny
Baker Story the journalist who lost his
job uh
he he was he's quite well known in
England and he put up a picture of the
Royal Family holding a monkey and
um okay yeah but yeah but well no but
wait but wait because oh that sounds bad
are you gonna tell me it wasn't that bad
yeah I think it wasn't that bad because
I think he's put up stuff before of the
royal family being monkeys he just finds
that funny and it was back at a time I
think this was a huge change like he in
England anyway it marked this change
where a lot of people were embarrassed
to find they didn't realize that Megan
was biracial and I'm I definitely speak
for myself because I had no idea I don't
follow the Royals in general and I saw
this woman I grew up in a you know a
Jewish upbringing a lot of Jewish people
some are sort of Russian and very white
like me but a lot of sort of Darker
skinned and stuff she could have just
been one one of us
um I had no idea and he said he had no
idea and it was weird for him to
suddenly put out like a racist thing
after like 50 years of not putting out
racist things but he lost his job so
that was like a turning point for
everyone he was like oh no okay we've
got to be careful now if we do criticize
not that we were criticizing that much
back then like and you're writing your
article as well
um her public this was I I love that
it's like this time machine because this
was 2018. and so you write her public
performance has been flawed dollars so
what's changed in the last few years
yeah I mean just to just to put a bow on
that I would just say that like you know
the the royal family is are there the
original racists and they used to like
shatter their faces to make them whiter
so you know of course there is some
racism there but uh yes when I wrote
this article I you know would say that
you know a couple things happened the
first one was that
um like you know a woman's magazine that
normally would write about all of the
stuff that I write about
um sort of refuse to even promote the
article and when I talked to the editor
and I said why aren't you picking this
up there's a ton of news in here she
said well we're not going to say
anything negative about Megan and your
article really strikes us as something
that like you're totally aw you're
totally wrong about this you're
completely off the on off the
reservation and I and I was like okay
mark my words like I don't have it in
for Megan for no reason like I just
happen to have on and talked to 20
people who knew her and this is like
what I came away with which is basically
like you know she's a grasping striving
like woman and one of the
um things that somebody said to me that
always stuck in my mind was that uh you
know they said like the the whole cast
of Suits like or not the whole cast of
Suits but a large number of the people
on suits you know sort of didn't like
jive with her and somebody said like
she's just not somebody you can be
friends with you know like she'll you
can go on a hike with her through the
Hollywood Hills and she'll ask you about
your family she'll be very nice but you
never actually get to know this person
like you can't touch her you can't get
through the glass you know and the other
thing that somebody said to me about
that scene of people up in um Toronto at
Soho house which is of course you know
suits was was filmed in Toronto and you
know hanging out with all these Brits up
there that also stuck in my mind was
like these women have everything and
they want everything
and it's basically this idea that you
know I am I am just for women's rights
and for the underclass
is like a later sort of you know gloss
on what was really a life that was
ambitious and directed towards ambition
and and you know
look I think I think it's all just
really silly the way that she's you know
tried she's essentially devoted herself
to rehabbing or changing her image which
really wasn't that bad to begin with
it's like she wants to be sainted she
needs to be Oprah it's like everybody
already loved you just like leave it
it's fine the way it is
um but I I I I think that you know
there's
just the whole world is now sort of
seeing the strangeness of this like
singular Vision that she has for her
life and for Harry
um I just happen to have seen it earlier
because I had actually done like hard
reporting you know I worked in La for a
long time
um I just it was weird it was like I
just everybody I asked I said do you
know Meghan Markle everybody knew her
like she was out and about remember she
had that husband originally you know and
and they were
you know they were out making moves on
the scene like going to dinner with
everybody networking constantly she was
an extremely known quantity in that La
Hollywood sort of you know
like it's not like I know a ton of I
mean I don't know Brad Pitt right like I
don't know a ton of people who are high
level Hollywood people but in the sort
of like
you know TV actors show Runners people
who you know you know care about the hot
restaurant but not the one that costs
500 to go to dinner just the one that
has really good ethnic food and you know
she was she was very very known and that
was a scene that I was you know somewhat
uh able to
wasn't like infiltrating it was like I
was like sort of knew these people you
know
um it's it's it's interesting like I
think a lot of people wonder why uh they
say why are you obsessed with Meghan
Markle and part of the reason is because
you put out a video on YouTube it gets
hundreds of thousands of views because
everybody's a bit obsessed and I I
wonder what you think of this Theory I I
feel like she's she's now become sort of
the face of a of a maybe a conflict
between like two tribes of people and
you've got sort of uh I think it's okay
to be really ambitious I think we
actually venerate ambitious people
particularly in the states more than the
UK sometimes you know you can be
ambitious and go for that American dream
and which I like I like that you can be
honest and go for it and you can also be
like a really worthy person who does
lots of Charity and wants to help others
and all of those things and I think when
you try and combine the two as we've
seen over the years with a lot of
Hollywood for example a lot of the
Oscars a lot of these people uh it
becomes a little bit Insidious and it
becomes you know disingenuous we don't
really believe the person anymore and it
sort of over the years with Megan it
started to seep out a few of us despite
everyone loving her apparently a few of
us were like well hang on it doesn't
really fit that she's this person who
sort of she went to apparently you know
had to get scholarships to go to school
and grew up completely work in class and
she just wants to help everyone and be
this big feminist and stuff it's just so
much so much of her story doesn't fit
together does it yeah I mean I think the
thing is
um
you know the way I see Megan is that she
uh
you know she came from this very sort of
middle class uh Hollywood family right
where uh her dad was a lighting designer
you know her mom was like super into
yoga
um that you know we'll get to her sister
eventually right her hop sister
um but she
you know sort of grew up on the on the
edges of Hollywood I guess you would say
we're not not really the edges but you
know these were not the Rich and Famous
her parents these were just the regular
working stiffs in Hollywood and you know
I always thought it was incredible that
she she went to like uh you know a nice
Catholic school and then after school
she would sometimes go to the set of
Married With Children to hang out with
her dad you know so that's where he was
like doing lighting which was just like
quite a juxtaposition and a in a really
strange way
um but she you know seems to from a
young age have had real Ambitions to be
famous to be an actress to be like sort
of of the higher class than what her
upbringing was so that's like where she
was pointed to I mean her family is
fascinating and her relationship with
her father I think is fascinating
because what people said to me is like
they did have a good loving relationship
but there's something about him that's
also odd there's something about him
that is hard to reach and behind glass
as well and so
what's happened with her dad is just a
really sad story in a way I think which
is that maybe she you know I would
imagine was a little embarrassed of him
or didn't really know how am I gonna
play you know my mom who just like went
to Humboldt and hung out for a few years
I mean her when you start looking into
her family history it doesn't seem like
one of a princess right
so
there may have been some anxiety around
that maybe there were even questions
around money around that what are what
is my family gonna do when they realize
like I have the crown jewels you know
how is that gonna work
um how can I introduce these people to
you know royalty and all the other Lords
and Ladies that I now hang out with you
know putting myself in her mind which is
whatever obviously my imagination I can
imagine that she was nervous about a lot
of this stuff and then you know
the story that I've been told from my
reporting is that you know there was a
female journalist from I one of the
tabloids who basically sort of moved
down to Mexico to be near her dad and
you know really befriended him and
essentially uh you know played the game
that journalists play which is like let
me help you but also let me get a side
you know let me get a story in the
newspaper let me help you collect your
thoughts about all this and we'll get
stories in the newspaper and
um you know there was some emotional
bond that was formed between that female
reporter and her dad
um and that that that got in the way of
some of the relationship between him and
Megan I think some of what you're what
you what you're saying how you describe
them you know on the well I suppose the
edges or the cusps of Hollywood all the
time and working in Hollywood it sounds
like there's that real aspiration uh and
so so Megan might have been right to be
a bit wary of of her family and she was
proven right to be fair to her I
criticized her a lot I can see why she
was guarded about I mean how how does
she introduce a family like that who who
are that aspirational and as you point
out in your article uh just see it as
celebrities and climbing a ladder how do
you introduce them to you know your this
new family this new life you've carved
out for yourself well see I don't know
if they were so striving I think the way
that I've been told that is that she was
the striving one and they were just sort
of Hollywood weirdos like they were just
sort of like all right you know what I
mean like not really you know her mom is
supposed to be very calm and like a nice
presence and her dad was like already
sort of like down in Mexico right like
doing whatever living on a probably a
pensioner salary and like you know there
it was more just that they were like not
they didn't fit a normal mold and
probably you never knew what really was
going to come out of their mouths
but I do think that you know had she
you know figured out a way to bring them
to Britain to meet everybody in a
controlled setting for a dinner or
something like that and by everybody I
mean her parents I do not actually mean
her sister you know uh
it would have if she didn't have to
bring all the people on the outskirts of
the family and you know this cousin and
that cousin just her parents
and set it up that way early on
um you know for a weekend a shooting
weekend or whatever uh all of this could
have sort of been avoided you know and
they would have put out the word to the
rest of the family like
Megan is talking to us but it's not
going to be the extended family at the
wedding
um or something along those lines now
all those people would eventually have
told their stories there's no way that
they wouldn't have but the stuff with
the parents is really so strange and her
dad is so strange that I think she could
have avoided some of it and what I can
see from his point of view as well I
mean imagine it's paying to send your
daughter to a you know through college
and then she comes out and starts saying
that you know it was all paid for by
scholarships and things and if I'm just
sort of again it's that that sort of it
seems like she's trying as hard as she
can to be this uh sort of well
Cinderella story and it doesn't seem to
be true
all right well I think the thing is is
that her you know we'd have to actually
see the receipts to know exactly what
happened I mean my recollection which
could just I think it might be that
there is a uh you know there were some
loans and there were some payments and
there was this and that
um the
the fact is is that she wanted to be
seen as like this independent woman you
know and what we know now about her is
that she has like sort of a strange
relationship to objective reality like
she has this like sort of warped reality
and then she just like Marshals evidence
underneath it to support a thesis that
may not be the case and she very much
seems to think that everybody's too dumb
to figure out what she's doing and I
think that that's where her fatal flaw
lies which is like everybody knows that
you got in trouble for saying you never
Googled like Prince Harry right on the
Oprah interview and then you come out
with your Netflix documentary and the
first thing you do is try to create some
supporting evidence in the first like
five minutes of that documentary to show
that you were right about that and
somehow how we're all supposed to not
know that this is part of like a PR
crisis comms strategy
um
which is quite like
strange you know like even Diana talked
to the Press like everybody knows that
Diana was heavily involved in Her Image
management
um she didn't do a great job with that
but like you know there's
and she thinks she has this Ace in the
Hole which is Harry will just say over
and over well my mother
right like he'll just say well my mother
was killed by these people you know so
thereby they are unmentionables
Untouchables they are evil and
um any manipulation that we have to do
is completely Justified because we are
fighting this enormous you know braying
like monster
um which is only like a monster in her
like it's it is a monster in his mind
right because it's real for him like the
psychology I mean it must be so like so
hard for him
but it's not a monster in her mind
because she is the one who would go out
to like drinks with Piers Morgan like
yeah she was desperate for the press to
be like interested in her you know yeah
no absolutely and I mean there was this
bit that I remember from uh Prince
Harry's book spare where he I hate it it
was one of the worst Parts really
because I I'm not a big fan of Prince
Harry either or any of the the Royals I
mean I think the whole royal thing is
that's a whole other topic about whether
the world should be there or not yeah
and I don't mind that they that they are
there I just think if you grow up in
those under those conditions it's
difficult to then be sort of a a
well-rounded individual but um there's a
scene where he really uh talks with
disdain about the Spice Girls because he
happened to be sort of sharing a
platform of them at one point when he
was younger and he talks about how they
were sort of enjoying the Limelight and
the press and the attention and stuff
and I thought it was so tone deaf
because these are you know five working
class women who have worked their way up
and they rely on the Press it's a
symbiotic relationship that they have
and they're selling what they have which
is their voices and their dancing and
all these things that they can do and
their their whole ethos and he didn't
have to do that however after all the
criticism that he's dished out at people
like the Spice Girls or just the press
in general he's as South Park pointed
out he's become a journalist himself and
dished out more secrets about the royal
family than any of any other journalists
could have dreamed of doing and he did
it for the same reason they did it for
money but I think it's even worse
because he didn't need anywhere near us
these people I'm not a huge fan of the
paparazzi but often they need the money
to sort of you know put bread on the
table uh with Harry he didn't need you
know hundreds it's absolutely like
bananas I mean what has happened is so
bananas and I wish I had seen this
coming because quite honestly when I you
know I'm not that well sourced in
Britain I didn't know you yet but like
you know when I after I did this this
story
um you know I had heard Tina Brown was
working on a book but I was like my Lord
this is a book because I know that this
is gonna go someplace real strange you
know and um I mean I still get emails
from lots of British you know
biographers and tabloid writers and
they're always like
I saw this story who is this person this
unnamed person in your story and I'm
like I'm not giving you my sources but
um there is like
just a fascinating story of like
anglo-american relations upper class
lower class Upstairs Downstairs like you
know what what the I mean it's just it
has everything racism gender you know
the need for money when these people
have so I mean they could go back to
England and live in you know the biggest
mansions that anybody ever saw I mean I
guess they got Frogmore Cottage sort of
taken away but like you know they could
have everything they want right if they
were there they obviously don't want
that and you know to that I I give them
credit if you really don't want it good
for you for just saying like I'm out of
here you know making myself I'm gonna
make my own life with my own kids my own
wife like I think that's really cool but
um the hypocrisy of like
I hate the Press so much
but I should be able to sell my products
where I speak to you directly and put
out my warped vision of reality and you
should just buy it even though we have
like
many reports of Megan
assistance being fired this person she's
a problem with this person she's a
problem with that person there's like
endless things that happened while they
were in Britain that are confirmed that
are not about like
you know victimhood right and
so I don't get like
how I the only explanation I can have I
can get is that I mean in my the only
explanation that like makes sense to me
is the idea that they truly are part of
an overclass now like they are at dinner
with Oprah and Bezos and you know I
don't know about Elon Musk but like the
people in the world who
you know for for for whom like reality
doesn't really matter and nobody would
ever say anything negative towards you
and they're sort of playing to that
audience right yeah I just feel they
could have got there without the virtue
stuff people like excesses when people
are honest about it people like the
Kardashians don't they you know that
just the Mad excess uh ambition Drive
fantastic good for you it's you know why
is that they didn't do that and then
there's a lot of stuff as well I always
think this about I mean there's a
difficulty just with celebrity anyway uh
in terms of
um for example children's books um I
know that like in the industry of
children's writing people are really
annoyed at Celebrities because
celebrities keep coming and writing
children's books uh and it's like
stealing the work from the children's
book writers because if you've got a big
name and you're a celebrity your book's
the one that's going to sell a lot more
yeah um but that's true across so many
genres when you're a celebrity you can
and I think that's okay because you
you've got to live how you've got to
live but there's just zero awareness of
them doing that and I'm annoyed as a
podcaster because Megan made a podcast
and they had this big deal it took them
like a year to put one episode out
they're just awful they were they're so
bad and she got paid more from that than
I'll get from like years of putting out
three episodes a week now all fine but I
just don't want to hear that she's a
victim and that he's a victim and that
they're all victims right but they but
it also could be like a a really just
um you know incredible strategy that
they have because the fact is if they're
not gonna tell us secrets about the
royal family you know which of course
they're gonna have to say they're the
worst right they're never gonna say like
okay let me get into the Nuance here
um
that's what's keeping attention on them
like if they did just go make their you
know documentary about Africa or
whatever you and I wouldn't be sitting
here talking about them so this is what
like I I think that
she's extremely canny and you know in
her heart of hearts does she know
does she know exactly what she's doing I
don't know I mean
after I wrote the story of infinity Fair
uh
five friends of hers were suddenly
authorized to speak to People magazine
and uh
cover in People magazine came out about
how amazing she is and you know it
wasn't like oh Vanity Fair was wrong but
it was a very very clear rebuttal piece
right and
this is just my opinion but there's
nobody who can authorize those people to
speak except for her yeah but I guess
there's a difference between and this is
what we do we're speculating about
there's a difference between her
um knowing that she's actually you know
a nefarious present presence trying to
do bad things uh and her going on the
defensive and just being like well hang
on they've said that I've you know I'm
bad but I know these friends will speak
nicely about me and I'd actually prefer
it if she were the just you know uh
malevolent one if she knew like hahaha
I'm an evil narcissist and I'm doing
this for my own gains I'm like you know
what fine good on you that like you say
it's a strategy but if she doesn't
realize that's what's frustrating right
right right yeah she's she's a
I I think you would have to
be with her to know but I do know that I
know somebody who interviewed her
um who sell remaining nameless because I
tried to get her to come on my podcast
Infamous it's like you should come on my
podcast and talk about Meghan Markle and
she said I don't want to come because
I've had a million tabloids calling me
you know people coming after me on the
internet who are like stands of Megan
like I just don't want to deal with this
but she had spent a day with Megan in
California and her takeaway was
this person just is not on the level
like this person is just not on a level
like I I don't want to be here
you know what is what is it though what
is it they don't like about her
it's that she's not real it's like for
all of her like you know whatever videos
of her like dancing on the beach with
her shoes off and like you know scarves
going around her like she's just not
real she just doesn't know how to relate
to human beings are we talking you've
spent a lot of time with sort of
narcissists and Psychopaths obviously
for Infamous as well we've talked about
Nexium before is is that the sort of
world we're talking about the world of
narcissists
I don't think she's a psychopath I mean
I have no I don't think like DV
D even some way like that
I think
you know and again this is just my
opinion and my hunch for talking to
people in her family
um you know and I did talk to her sister
a lot and
my hunch is that
there's just something a little off
about all of them yeah you know what's
the deal with her sister then what's the
deal with Samantha Markle because she's
suing her isn't she
she's suing her now
um I can't imagine she's gonna win any
sort of suit
um saying that you know she did know her
half-sister Megan and Megan is you know
lying when she says she didn't know her
um I mean I fell from the conversations
I had with Samantha that she didn't know
her very well she certainly knew her you
know but she you know was leaving the
house right there's a quite a big age
difference
um
and this felt to me like a relationship
that had broken apart a long time ago
probably when Megan had started having
success right
um
the funny thing about Samantha is is
like she's quite articulate and funny
and interesting to talk to
um and she probably has some good
insights and real information
but she can't help herself from calling
her like princess pushy and striking out
and you know you feel social feelings
right I mean
I don't think that you can
overestimate the amount of hurt that was
felt throughout that entire family like
any third cousin was like I should have
been at this wedding
like why is every third cousin of
Harry's there why am I not there you
know and and you can make an argument
for that which is like
why
I mean
you know I I also heard that there were
a lot of people at the wedding
who were sort of looking at each other
like the Americans who were invited and
going can you believe we were invited to
this wedding like we're not really
friends with these people you know like
that she had to create this whole like
cast right to to show that she had
people there for her when she could have
just had her actual family right and and
I just think that's where it it's like a
little bit of honey and a carrot would
have gone really far she didn't have to
invite every third cousin but
I bet you could have controlled the
situation a little bit better
given how how he's broken away from his
own family it is all a bit gross
um a bit you know
because he's from the sort of Posh Rich
family it's like okay well they'll host
it because they're the royal family but
we're all people we're gonna you know
ashes to ashes or whatever so we'll just
people wandering around why should it be
his family it was pretty exciting that
it was his family I mean it wasn't gonna
be like you know some place in like
Inland Empire like uh like if they want
to break away
right yeah we didn't yet they didn't yet
um you know I think uh yeah I think none
of that had really had really happened
at that point and
um I don't think they should be faulted
and again like I think a lot of stuff
happened where her dad and her sister
were way at fault like I don't want to
give the impression that things did not
go like massively massively Haywire
because they did
um but I I do feel like it's curious
that somebody who is so intense about
managing her own image wasn't able to
manage this family complexity you know
without it breaking out into full view
in a like
just shocking right like an absolutely
shocking dumpster fire you know yeah I
like the quote um uh charity starts in
the home because I I just I just had too
many experiences I think like living
with people when I was younger and uh
who have always just been on about like
saving the rainforest or whatever it
might be and then they don't do the
dishes in the house or something they
don't do their their part and I think
it's you know to be like running around
the world on these extravagant holidays
talking about all the charity that she's
doing and the things she's doing for
feminism and stuff but not making an
effort to like invite her own family to
the wedding not making an effort to go
along with some of the I mean as stupid
as they are they're the you know the
Royals some of the Traditions are a bit
outdated and stuff
um but we've all got in-laws and you
know we just sort of shut up around them
and do some of what they want to do and
that's right I mean the problem here is
that you know it's like she invites the
cousin and they you know steal the first
communion you know of you know I mean
like they're just like who knows what is
gonna happen you know and certainly
they're gonna sell a bunch of stories I
mean not much is clear right so
yeah I mean I get that it was not she
was unknowledgeable that something weird
was gonna happen if she didn't control
it but she didn't do a good job in the
way that she tried to manage the
situation I just you you know I I just
don't the thing that I am still so
surprised about is just like
just be real honey like just be real
that's what people actually like like
you can still do all this weird glossy
like netflixy stuff but like if you're
making a podcast people actually want to
hear from like a human being not like an
Android like she sounds like a robot you
know yeah and how much longer can we
watch this show I mean they're really
starting to repeat themselves now
yeah so when I was five years old I
wrote to a commercial to you know tell
them what a feminist I was and I helped
everyone and me and Serena Williams are
victims Serena Williams actually done
something in her life she's pretty cool
you know yeah that that episode really I
couldn't listen to the podcast after
that yeah some of the you give us some
great insights in that article
um and again you were ahead of the curve
because nobody was printing uh criticism
of of her or him at that time but really
interesting insights into her her life
and you can see why she might have had
some issues with authenticity because I
do think when you grow up around that
Hollywood side you know you're always
sort of looking in and then you get this
idea of like performed authenticity
you're trying too hard I see it you know
my my half sister she's grown up uh with
the family they're always watching like
X Factor and the voice and all these
things on TV and I think it's hard it
must be hard for her sometimes to look
at that and then sort of think am I
supposed to be like that because that's
what you go out watching and Megan was
really you know watching this acting
stuff and then there's some stuff you
wrote about like you know if she had a
tantrum when she was a baby and threw
Peas on the floor her dad would sort of
join in uh and throw Peas on the floor
so she was always around this sort of
performative like what there was there
was a blurred line between what was real
and what was performed
yeah I think she you know I mean look
she was a young actress in Hollywood
right so she was like sort of in that
scene where nobody's actually telling
the truth everybody's sort of just you
know trying to make it however they can
so for me you know
I really wonder like what is actually
going through her mind I really am here
I am very curious did you watch the
South the South Park episode no oh they
they imply there's a bit at the end
where uh the the character that's
supposed to be Harry sort of opens her
head up and sort of says something like
is anyone in there and it like Echoes
um so they they yeah she's quite smart
though I mean if you look at her writing
also she's a very good writer
um even when it's like you know the the
letter she sent to her dad that she you
know knew was going to be released or
whatever it's actually a very good a
good letter I mean yeah like I I mean I
had a I got a an incredible anecdote
where she had gone to like glamor or L
one of these women's magazines and she
met this woman that I know who I
actually made a podcast with Justine
Harmon who uh the two of us made a
podcast about the fall of Victoria's
Secret called Fallen Angel and so she
she went you know it's sort of like a
meet and greet which is what like B
level actresses would do with women's
magazine editors and she came into the
office she met with Justine Justine's
you know in the course of conversation
mentioned she was about to get married
and
she said to Justine well I do
calligraphy like can I do the
calligraphy for your wedding Megan was
like sometimes I do calligraphy on the
side like I do it for people's weddings
sometimes I'm really it's like a thing I
know how to do and I'm really good at it
and I want to do it for you and so
Justine like afterwards was like asking
her friend like can I actually ask like
Meghan Markle to do the calligraphy for
my wedding and
um
and she didn't ask her and then she
ended up like interviewing her again or
something and the first thing we're not
the first thing but like Meghan Markle
says to her
why do you why did you never call me to
do the calligraphy for your wedding and
she was just like what
thing like
um I'm gonna have to look that up just
to make sure I didn't like completely
misspeak but basically that's the kind
of like
I feel like that's sort of where she's
at where she's like one of these people
where she
like gives really elaborate awesome
presence
like where you're like oh no do I have
to like give you back a present because
I don't even know what to get and I I
wouldn't even want to get this present
it's very nice of you but this is not
like my love language already
never never trust people who give
outlandish presents because I actually
think that because I think that is I
mean we you and I know from doing
looking into Colts and stuff there's
love bombing it's a huge sort of
manipulative thing that people do it
happens in relationships when like you
can imagine a guy or a girl giving like
loads of presents and then you sort of
expect things back and from my own
experience and I I sort of well I know
my fiance is listening to this I've sort
of uh concerned that I'll stop getting
presents now but when you get them
presents that are too much that it
offers it never feels good right your
first thought is like oh how am I gonna
I feel I feel humiliated and how am I
going to get them back how can I how can
I live nicely enough I didn't want to
see that friend again anyway really now
I've got to like be friends with him for
a few more years
yeah
maybe that's a nice thing that she
offered to do the calligraphy it is
quite nice I mean it is quite nice
that's the thing you know she's lovely
in person everybody really likes her you
know but you don't hear about her the
things you hear about Kim Kardashian
right which is like everybody says oh my
God I met Kim Kardashian and she's great
right like she's so sweet she's so
polite she's not like crass like she's
seems sort of smart and she's interested
in you and there's feels like a realness
there you know and that's not what you
hear about her
you know another another line in your
article that that had me annoyed a bit
at Megan
um was this this thing about how she was
like the president of every Club at
school and she was this huge over
achiever but now she speaks about it and
sort of reframes it as not because I
wanted to it was the overachiever mask I
wore you know as a as a way of battling
feeling displaced and again it's that
sort of line and again we cover this a
lot in Cults and things but it's that
line between sort of victim and and uh
and well what's the opposite of victim
but I don't want to say Predator hero
Yeah well yeah victim and hero I guess
it's that it's that line it's like I can
imagine somebody at school now going
around being like in charge of
everything almost bullying other people
like just being the popular kids and
stuff like that and you get to have that
and it's like you get your cake and eat
it because then 20 years later you can
reframe it as like but it's this victim
story because I was so displaced by my
and it's like we know that we know that
about you know even in Back to the
Future like Biff The Bullying it you
know he must have had a bad upbringing
and it's that old traditional cliche of
like ah their parents were the real
bullies and that's why they were like
that at school it doesn't excuse you
being like this you know you can't just
I don't know I've lost my train of
thought here but you know what I mean
yeah I mean I think the thing is is like
there's a lot of pop psychology that she
does and it's look I think she you know
I think I think she felt somewhat uh you
know at at Loose Ends growing up you
know whatever her personality of her
father is her mother wasn't around that
much you know having a black mother
probably at that time was a little weird
right like having an interracial family
um wasn't like she didn't feel like she
looked like everybody else when she went
around she didn't have a perfect
childhood like I think that that much is
very clear and very true like she was
sort of at loose ends and and although
her father did definitely care for her
like and took care of her like there was
you know this was a man who was working
full time right and doing what he could
had some other kids it's like you know
it just it wasn't like a picket fence
lifestyle where she came home from
school and her mom made her peanut
butter and jelly you know I'm sure there
were a lot of TV dinners like in her
life as a kid but you know
a lot of people have like hard
childhoods it's just I don't know I mean
there's like a gratitude piece that's
missing with her like a a gratitude Gene
that I think I don't discern that much
at least in what she puts out like
publicly you know
um yeah
and now they need money like that's the
thing I'm not clear on what the finances
are are you like I don't know
what what they have what they don't have
they have some money anyway I mean I
guess both of them I mean from her
acting and stuff and he got some money
he's just like inherited inherited so I
don't know the full ins and outs of it
but I know he's got a few million or
something but for someone of that kind
of Lifestyle yeah it wasn't it wasn't
enough so but now I think Netflix was a
hundred million dollars and the podcast
was you know tens of millions the book
uh as well so now they've definitely got
you know one or two hundred million
dollars between them which should last
them a few weeks probably with their
their lifestyle and that and that's
again that's the issue it's it's fine to
go and sell stories and things to an
extent for money but we just don't want
to hear the victim story with it I don't
want to hear that the Press are evil
when they're just doing the same thing
when the money is we're not talking
about Millions then we're talking about
you know what do they get a few hundred
maybe a thousand dollars for us one of
these stories so
that's the that's the complication
around it and I think Prince Harry's the
same thing with the Gratitude uh reading
his book it wasn't all bad and it's the
same thing as what you say about Megan
that his life it wasn't that great
um I don't think it was that great I
certainly don't envy his his early uh
life and his upbringing with what
happened to his mum okay he it might be
overused or whatever but it's not not a
nice thing to happen to him uh the lack
of love and the coldness in that family
and also like I think a huge part of
life is growing up and being able to
sort of try and move upwards in some
sense and have a vague feeling of
improving and achieving but if you're
born not just the you know on top of the
top there's nowhere to go it's still
better than being poor and struggling to
put food on the table but I'd say that
most middle or lower middle class people
probably have it better in many respects
in terms of just happiness in your life
but you read that book and there's just
not there's not one iota of like to be
fair I had it a bit you know easier in
some ways then there's nothing he's just
envies like the common person with no
idea about the struggles that most of us
have to make I got um you've mentioned
peanut butter and jelly I got punched
for a peanut butter and jelly sandwich
once what does that mean
somebody oh somebody wanted yours
because you had a nice upbringing with
peanut butter and jelly sandwiches
it was I think actually you've you've
got the Crux of it because what I'm
studying at um Leeds University there
there is a bit of conflict between sort
of the locals and a lot of the students
who often come from London are sort of
uh maybe more middle class uh and so I
was just walking and I'd made this nice
peanut butter and jelly sandwich which
we call peanut butter and jam of course
and uh I haven't had that for years
actually because I'm eating a bit
healthier but but I was just walking and
this guy was like oh you got a sign in
it and I was like oh God uh yes hello
um you yes it's mine though and he said
like oh good gives you suck give us your
Sani and I went oh uh and eventually I
gave him half
and he he threw it on the floor and he
said I don't want your Sani and then he
punched me in the face oh my God
that was 18 year old me
now yeah
crypto is the peanut butter and jelly of
the of the future exactly
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